Aonuma Update: Splite Timeline Comment
03-07-2007
By: TSA
Patricia, our resident Japanese translator (who also did the Zelda no Video and Hylian stuff), has translated the interview. Additionally, I spoke with NOA here and they got in contact with an NCL rep and they confirmed Mr. Aonuma did an interview with Nintendo Dream about this topic matter some time back. So Zelda fans, looks like this is for real.
-When does Twilight Princess take place?
Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years
later.
-And the Wind Waker?
Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven
years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember?
Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and
something years after kid Link's now peaceful time. In the last scene of
Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk. As a consequence of
that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the
middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon being
executed, right? Link and Zelda left him be and he then did something
outrageous, so it was decided he should be executed. That scene takes place
several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and nowhe wants to obtain that power...
-And now we wait for the game to enjoy the rest of the story, huh? (laughs)
Aonuma: Well, that's how things are. (laughs)
-There's a reference to King Zora, and there are some pictures from the
fishing pond girl, here and there the game really gives you the feeling that
Ocarina of Time was some time ago.
Aonuma: Those things have a connection to Ocarina of Time, and we were not very sure whether we should include them, but the staff was having a good time, so those details just kept increasing.
-Kakariko Village and Lake Hylia have the same names, did you have in mind the hundred years that passed?
Aonuma: We clearly didn't design Kakariko Village to reflect that a hundred
years had passed. We had this town and when we decided the events that would take place there, we also decided it to be Kakariko Village, just the way it was. In this game, there are some places named "Forest Firo-ne" and
"Orudin"; they were named like that after the three goddesses from Ocarina
of Time. In the time of Ocarina of Time, there were no such places, but
after a long time, the names grew on the people living there and so those
names were passed on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember reading the interview some time ago, and there are some other
interesting things, like the fact that Aonuma himself wrote the lines of the
skeleton warrior that teaches you the hidden skills, that they originally
had planned for Link to turn into a wolf earlier in the game, or that the
Star Game man is indeed a real-life version of Tingle. Maybe it'd be a good
idea to translate all the interview, I'll start working on it and I'll send
it to you as soon as I finish.
Patricia, our resident Japanese translator (who also did the Zelda no Video and Hylian stuff), has translated the interview. Additionally, I spoke with NOA here and they got in contact with an NCL rep and they confirmed Mr. Aonuma did an interview with Nintendo Dream about this topic matter some time back. So Zelda fans, looks like this is for real.
-When does Twilight Princess take place?
Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years
later.
-And the Wind Waker?
Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven
years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember?
Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and
something years after kid Link's now peaceful time. In the last scene of
Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk. As a consequence of
that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the
middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon being
executed, right? Link and Zelda left him be and he then did something
outrageous, so it was decided he should be executed. That scene takes place
several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and nowhe wants to obtain that power...
-And now we wait for the game to enjoy the rest of the story, huh? (laughs)
Aonuma: Well, that's how things are. (laughs)
-There's a reference to King Zora, and there are some pictures from the
fishing pond girl, here and there the game really gives you the feeling that
Ocarina of Time was some time ago.
Aonuma: Those things have a connection to Ocarina of Time, and we were not very sure whether we should include them, but the staff was having a good time, so those details just kept increasing.
-Kakariko Village and Lake Hylia have the same names, did you have in mind the hundred years that passed?
Aonuma: We clearly didn't design Kakariko Village to reflect that a hundred
years had passed. We had this town and when we decided the events that would take place there, we also decided it to be Kakariko Village, just the way it was. In this game, there are some places named "Forest Firo-ne" and
"Orudin"; they were named like that after the three goddesses from Ocarina
of Time. In the time of Ocarina of Time, there were no such places, but
after a long time, the names grew on the people living there and so those
names were passed on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember reading the interview some time ago, and there are some other
interesting things, like the fact that Aonuma himself wrote the lines of the
skeleton warrior that teaches you the hidden skills, that they originally
had planned for Link to turn into a wolf earlier in the game, or that the
Star Game man is indeed a real-life version of Tingle. Maybe it'd be a good
idea to translate all the interview, I'll start working on it and I'll send
it to you as soon as I finish.
Comments: 48
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Comment #1 by Santuli
03/07/07 15:20
Comment #2 by KB
03/07/07 15:23
Comment #3 by adam8or
03/07/07 15:26
oo awsome. i always beleived there was a Split timeline theory and this pretty much comfirmed it.
And i read somewhere that the STAR guy is based off tingle, i never heard anything about him actually being tingle. but he does have many, both phisical and mental, features that tingle has, he acts like a clown and sorta resembles one, just like tingle's playful personality, and also they both are very ambicious, meaning they are looking for a way to get rupees all the time.
And i read somewhere that the STAR guy is based off tingle, i never heard anything about him actually being tingle. but he does have many, both phisical and mental, features that tingle has, he acts like a clown and sorta resembles one, just like tingle's playful personality, and also they both are very ambicious, meaning they are looking for a way to get rupees all the time.
Comment #4 by HylianTX
03/07/07 15:47
Comment #6 by Warlock
03/07/07 16:02
Comment #7 by arrrgghhh
03/07/07 16:11
Comment #8 by ArturoWii
03/07/07 16:15
Comment #10 by Crazyfreak
03/07/07 16:18
Comment #12 by Mact
03/07/07 16:52
Comment #13 by zeldagal
03/07/07 16:57
Comment #14 by Mact
03/07/07 16:58
"Why do we still have Link referred to as the legendary hero if these events were so changed?"
Hm... Good question.
Because if Twilight Princess is after the child ending, then, technically, Link didn't do anything at all besides talk to Zelda. That's my real issue with the split theory.
Also, there is the question of where exactly in time the ending scene takes place. If it is before Link opens the Sacred Realm, than Ganon should NOT have the Triforce of Power in Twilight Princess. If it was after, then Ganon still should take over Hyrule.
It's things like these that people seem to overlook when they say "oh, that was my theory too because it works perfectly."
Hm... Good question.
Because if Twilight Princess is after the child ending, then, technically, Link didn't do anything at all besides talk to Zelda. That's my real issue with the split theory.
Also, there is the question of where exactly in time the ending scene takes place. If it is before Link opens the Sacred Realm, than Ganon should NOT have the Triforce of Power in Twilight Princess. If it was after, then Ganon still should take over Hyrule.
It's things like these that people seem to overlook when they say "oh, that was my theory too because it works perfectly."
Comment #15 by Crazyfreak
03/07/07 17:19
Comment #16 by Psy
03/07/07 17:21
Comment #17 by Mikazukinoyaiba
03/07/07 19:06
'bout
damn
time
But single-timeline theorists will continue to argue and decide to "dismiss" certain things.
So it seems what I previously was told is wrong:
I thought TP occured between OoT and WW..
But it seems they changed their mind and made it:
OoT > Wind Waker
OoT > Majora's Mask > Twilight Princess.
Makes since when I think about it and look back on things, I mean Ganon being surprised that he had the Triforce for ONE thing was odd, since if he truly was the Ganon who ruled Hyrule for seven years he should have had the Triforce from the start.
Seems when Link talked with Zelda he prevented Ganon from tricking him into opening the Sacred Realm and some other events unfolded in which Ganon attempted to rule Hyrule, was captured, sent into the Twilight Realm, then MANY years later came upon Zant.
damn
time
But single-timeline theorists will continue to argue and decide to "dismiss" certain things.
So it seems what I previously was told is wrong:
I thought TP occured between OoT and WW..
But it seems they changed their mind and made it:
OoT > Wind Waker
OoT > Majora's Mask > Twilight Princess.
Makes since when I think about it and look back on things, I mean Ganon being surprised that he had the Triforce for ONE thing was odd, since if he truly was the Ganon who ruled Hyrule for seven years he should have had the Triforce from the start.
Seems when Link talked with Zelda he prevented Ganon from tricking him into opening the Sacred Realm and some other events unfolded in which Ganon attempted to rule Hyrule, was captured, sent into the Twilight Realm, then MANY years later came upon Zant.
Comment #18 by Dax
03/07/07 20:13
"Because "apparently" Link told the Royal Family about all of this BS and they believed him. Or so says the intro to MM.
I don't think I can play Zelda for a while. This is pathetic. "
The single-timeline theory makes even less sense, so quit complaining. The way OoT ends makes it impossible for there to be one unified timeline, as much as everyone might like that to be the case so the series continuity flows better. Blame Ocarina's writers.
I don't think I can play Zelda for a while. This is pathetic. "
The single-timeline theory makes even less sense, so quit complaining. The way OoT ends makes it impossible for there to be one unified timeline, as much as everyone might like that to be the case so the series continuity flows better. Blame Ocarina's writers.
Comment #19 by KB
03/07/07 21:16
Comment #20 by Henrie
03/07/07 22:29
Today Aonuma says that there is a split timeline. Tommorow he denies it. You never know for sure with nintendo. You can,t put Twilight princess in any timeline. There is just no real evidence in the game. They talk about the legendary hero in the game, but they don,t mention the hero of time!
As for Tingle: I always had the feeling that Tingle was meant to be a doppelganger of link. Almost all the people of termina were doppelgangers of hylian people, so why would link not have a doppelganger. Yes, he looks weird, but with a little bit of fantasy he is link!
As for Tingle: I always had the feeling that Tingle was meant to be a doppelganger of link. Almost all the people of termina were doppelgangers of hylian people, so why would link not have a doppelganger. Yes, he looks weird, but with a little bit of fantasy he is link!
Comment #21 by TRIFORCE89
03/07/07 23:21
Comment #22 by rpgedgar
03/07/07 23:26
Comment #23 by Mact
03/08/07 00:44
"The single-timeline theory makes even less sense, so quit complaining. The way OoT ends makes it impossible for there to be one unified timeline, as much as everyone might like that to be the case so the series continuity flows better."
Untrue. A single timeline is perfectly possible if you accept that time doesn't have to flow perfectly. Zelda could have stopped the adult timeline and placed a new beginning to the child timeline right where the old one left off. That leaves the affects of the adult timeline while giving everyone a second chance.
Untrue. A single timeline is perfectly possible if you accept that time doesn't have to flow perfectly. Zelda could have stopped the adult timeline and placed a new beginning to the child timeline right where the old one left off. That leaves the affects of the adult timeline while giving everyone a second chance.
Comment #24 by Muljo_Stpho
03/08/07 01:57
... Did that sound like anything other than gibberish to anybody? What do you mean when you say Zelda "stopped the timeline"? I remember before we rethought the wording and changed our theory from "double" to "split" the single timeline supporters criticized the idea for placing too much power in Zelda's hands. And they were right on that point, because who is she to play god with the order of the universe like that? But this is exactly what your idea is sounding like. It sounds like you're saying that Zelda has the fate of the world in the palm of her hand to play with and mold to her own liking, and somehow that involves restarting the world as if Ganon's takeover had never happened without actually canceling out the negative consequences of it. Gah! Dude, you can't have it both ways. It's like you're halfway between single and split here, acknowledging some of the effects of the split but insisting that it all works out into a single timeline anyway. Pick a side!
Comment #25 by Mgoblue201
03/08/07 03:09
"And the Zelda Box referencing MM in the intro for TWW???
Meh...."
I am not exactly fluent with the Zelda Box, but I believe it was a developer who made the link to MM, but that developer also said that the flood might've happened while Link was in Termina, impossible since the text said generations passed. The actual text makes no mention of MM. The closest it comes is about how Link journeyed from the land, but it also says that in conjunction with Link stepping into the flows of time, so I do not know if they are conjoined togther or two separate events.
"Today Aonuma says that there is a split timeline. Tommorow he denies it. You never know for sure with nintendo."
Aonuma has been alluding to the split timeline for five years. This has been his baby. The chances of him going back on it while he's still director are astonishingly small.
I really should've given credit to the person who originally emailed me with this info, a guy by the name of The Earthbound Kid, although I did not get a proper screen name out of him until well after I had posted the info. Kiera2 also deserves a ton of credit for helping me confirm this. Both of them will get credit when I update the game script. It's all thanks to those people. I simply reported my findings.
As for those who think the split timeline is the easy way out, I say again that this has been Aonuma's plan since before Wind Waker released. Maybe it gave them the creative license to flood Hyrule withoout consequence, but given how we received one of the most emotional moments in Zelda history, how can you possibly object? If anything, Wind Waker's ending isn't tainted by trying to shoehorn game after game ahead of it without paying proper due to the actual flooding. And this is coming from someone that venemously opposed the split timeline before the advent of TP.
You want to talk about screwing up the timeline? How about Miyamoto making OOT the Imprisoning War, and yet somehow the ending of OOT is incongruent with LTTP in regards to the Triforce pieces. At least Aonuma for the most part has been able to tie all of the games under his direction together very neatly while paying homage to OOT. I only hope that he succeeds in tying old to new and does not leave the 2D games out to dry.
Meh...."
I am not exactly fluent with the Zelda Box, but I believe it was a developer who made the link to MM, but that developer also said that the flood might've happened while Link was in Termina, impossible since the text said generations passed. The actual text makes no mention of MM. The closest it comes is about how Link journeyed from the land, but it also says that in conjunction with Link stepping into the flows of time, so I do not know if they are conjoined togther or two separate events.
"Today Aonuma says that there is a split timeline. Tommorow he denies it. You never know for sure with nintendo."
Aonuma has been alluding to the split timeline for five years. This has been his baby. The chances of him going back on it while he's still director are astonishingly small.
I really should've given credit to the person who originally emailed me with this info, a guy by the name of The Earthbound Kid, although I did not get a proper screen name out of him until well after I had posted the info. Kiera2 also deserves a ton of credit for helping me confirm this. Both of them will get credit when I update the game script. It's all thanks to those people. I simply reported my findings.
As for those who think the split timeline is the easy way out, I say again that this has been Aonuma's plan since before Wind Waker released. Maybe it gave them the creative license to flood Hyrule withoout consequence, but given how we received one of the most emotional moments in Zelda history, how can you possibly object? If anything, Wind Waker's ending isn't tainted by trying to shoehorn game after game ahead of it without paying proper due to the actual flooding. And this is coming from someone that venemously opposed the split timeline before the advent of TP.
You want to talk about screwing up the timeline? How about Miyamoto making OOT the Imprisoning War, and yet somehow the ending of OOT is incongruent with LTTP in regards to the Triforce pieces. At least Aonuma for the most part has been able to tie all of the games under his direction together very neatly while paying homage to OOT. I only hope that he succeeds in tying old to new and does not leave the 2D games out to dry.
Comment #26 by Mr.E
03/08/07 08:07
Hm, very interesting. I've always subscribed to the linear timeline theory myself, but I'm neither shocked nor upset that they'd decide to go in this direction instead. It's a logical, and seamless way to tie everything up. However, that being said, I would like to point out a couple of things:
#1) In relation to the linear timeline theory, and those who have advocated against it, I would just like to point out that time travel is no an exact science. That is to say that there are different types, there's the type where going back in time physically changes the future, making it never take place. And the type where the time travel creates a parallel timeline break-off point.
What I'm saying in that regard, is that prior to this interview we didn't know for sure what kind of time travel it was, and it could have very well been the type that would have made the dark OOT future never happen by changing the past, but now we know that's not the case.
In summary, I'm saying this merely to show that a linear timeline was *at one point* (prior to this) an actual possibility if you take into account that it could have been one of many types of time travel.
#2) While this interview *is* the most confirmation we've ever gotten, it should still be taken as a grain of salt. Not because it isn't reliable, but because these things change every day. Take comic books for example, one day they might say a character is dead, and then 3 years later after various other comics have come out the writer may suddenly decide:
"Hey, they weren't dead at all they were actually secretly in hiding and that the person we saw die was actually a robot clone from an alternate dimension"
All I'm saying is that this is confirmed now, as of this time. But in 10 years after 3 or 4 more games have come out that could in theory contradict this? In that instance they may retract this comment, or deny it completely.
Anyways, I'm pretty pleased with this situation, it makes a lot of sense, and I was never dead-set on linear or split, I'm good with whatever they decided to go with.
#1) In relation to the linear timeline theory, and those who have advocated against it, I would just like to point out that time travel is no an exact science. That is to say that there are different types, there's the type where going back in time physically changes the future, making it never take place. And the type where the time travel creates a parallel timeline break-off point.
What I'm saying in that regard, is that prior to this interview we didn't know for sure what kind of time travel it was, and it could have very well been the type that would have made the dark OOT future never happen by changing the past, but now we know that's not the case.
In summary, I'm saying this merely to show that a linear timeline was *at one point* (prior to this) an actual possibility if you take into account that it could have been one of many types of time travel.
#2) While this interview *is* the most confirmation we've ever gotten, it should still be taken as a grain of salt. Not because it isn't reliable, but because these things change every day. Take comic books for example, one day they might say a character is dead, and then 3 years later after various other comics have come out the writer may suddenly decide:
"Hey, they weren't dead at all they were actually secretly in hiding and that the person we saw die was actually a robot clone from an alternate dimension"
All I'm saying is that this is confirmed now, as of this time. But in 10 years after 3 or 4 more games have come out that could in theory contradict this? In that instance they may retract this comment, or deny it completely.
Anyways, I'm pretty pleased with this situation, it makes a lot of sense, and I was never dead-set on linear or split, I'm good with whatever they decided to go with.
Comment #27 by Warlock
03/08/07 10:22
Comics are a very poor example. You're talking about hundreds of different writers using the same characters in hundreds of different series, each of which is a "re-telling" of the last. If comics never changed, we'd still have Adam West-esce Batman in blue and gray tights making corney puns and "POW" symbols when he punches guys. Compare that to Frank Millar's Batman, or Batman Begins, or the other Batman movies, or Batman: the Animated Series, or any other Batman out there. They are all completely different.
If Aonuma says he's going with a split timeline, I see no reason why that would change.
If Aonuma says he's going with a split timeline, I see no reason why that would change.
Comment #28 by Mr.E
03/08/07 11:16
Perhaps comics were a poor example (was reading a comic when I made that comment, so it was the obvious choice). But examples exist nonetheless. However, my overall point was that things can and do change, not that they will, but that the possibility exists that they could. A better example would be politicians, or anyone working in any field in the history of mankind. Factors arise where viewpoints change.
A better example would probably be the older LOZ games, one would assume that years ago when it was just LOZ, Link's Adventure, and LttP (before OOT was even a concept) that Nintendo's view was that each game was a sequel to the last. But then OOT comes along and acts as a prequel, which changes the entire flow of the series.
What I mean to say is that that could easily happen again. Who's to say that in 10 years, or even 5 years, they won't decide to create a game that takes place at a certain point and makes this entire current split timeline invalid? It has happened before in the transition from 2D to 3D LOZ games, it could always happen again. Not that I'm saying it will, or that I want it to, just to clarify that. I'm simply saying anything is possible, and that things change depending on circumstances.
I must say though, I'm happy to see an official timeline (or at least the beginnings of one)... in any form. Its been a long time coming, but it seems like they're finally starting to put the pieces together in an official capacity. If only to a small degree at the moment.
A better example would probably be the older LOZ games, one would assume that years ago when it was just LOZ, Link's Adventure, and LttP (before OOT was even a concept) that Nintendo's view was that each game was a sequel to the last. But then OOT comes along and acts as a prequel, which changes the entire flow of the series.
What I mean to say is that that could easily happen again. Who's to say that in 10 years, or even 5 years, they won't decide to create a game that takes place at a certain point and makes this entire current split timeline invalid? It has happened before in the transition from 2D to 3D LOZ games, it could always happen again. Not that I'm saying it will, or that I want it to, just to clarify that. I'm simply saying anything is possible, and that things change depending on circumstances.
I must say though, I'm happy to see an official timeline (or at least the beginnings of one)... in any form. Its been a long time coming, but it seems like they're finally starting to put the pieces together in an official capacity. If only to a small degree at the moment.
Comment #29 by Warlock
03/08/07 12:12
Well you are right - things do change over the course of development. You just have to look at the differences between ALTTP's backstory and OoT to see that. But changing this would be a *huge* change. It would impact too much. Generally anything that changes is going to be a little thing - usually adding additional detail to something that was less defined before (which is particularly true when you insist on continuing with prequels like Miyamoto & co. keep doing :P)
I think generally once they have nailed down a timeline and made the commitment to follow it, that's where the major timeline revisions end. Good example of this being the Castlevania series which was largely "oh crap, we need a new Castlevania game - damn the story!" until IGA stepped in and sorted it out. He ended up retconning a few games that did not fit in the overall timeline (specifically: CV64/LOD, Circle of the Moon, and CV Legends.. and I may be forgetting one more) and unified the rest. So now they are more careful about not screwing up the timeline like they have in the past. The same is pretty much true of Zelda since Aonuma stepped onboard.
I think generally once they have nailed down a timeline and made the commitment to follow it, that's where the major timeline revisions end. Good example of this being the Castlevania series which was largely "oh crap, we need a new Castlevania game - damn the story!" until IGA stepped in and sorted it out. He ended up retconning a few games that did not fit in the overall timeline (specifically: CV64/LOD, Circle of the Moon, and CV Legends.. and I may be forgetting one more) and unified the rest. So now they are more careful about not screwing up the timeline like they have in the past. The same is pretty much true of Zelda since Aonuma stepped onboard.
Comment #30 by Warlock
03/08/07 12:15
Comment #31 by Mact
03/09/07 00:29
"And they were right on that point, because who is she to play god with the order of the universe like that?"
Check her hand. Now check her title. She is the Sage of Time and the one Chosen to wield the Triforce of Wisdom. Who is she to play god? Well, I guess you'd have to ask the goddesses who gave her the Wisdom and right to do what she did.
"It sounds like you're saying that Zelda has the fate of the world in the palm of her hand to play with and mold to her own liking, and somehow that involves restarting the world as if Ganon's takeover had never happened without actually canceling out the negative consequences of it. Gah! Dude, you can't have it both ways. It's like you're halfway between single and split here, acknowledging some of the effects of the split but insisting that it all works out into a single timeline anyway. Pick a side!"
If the goddesses will it to be that way, then why not? Read my words, not what you think they mean. I never said that she made it as if Ganon's reign never happened. I mean quite the opposite. It happened. The scars of it were still felt. That is why Zelda was sorrowful afterwards. Why would she be sad if everything were simply fixed? What she did bestow is the ability to relive those years that Ganon's reign stole from Hyrule.
Your problem is that you have a cut-clean view of time, a concept that only exists by human perception in the first place. Who are you to tell me that time can split but my way can't work? I am not acknowledging any split whatsoever.
Check her hand. Now check her title. She is the Sage of Time and the one Chosen to wield the Triforce of Wisdom. Who is she to play god? Well, I guess you'd have to ask the goddesses who gave her the Wisdom and right to do what she did.
"It sounds like you're saying that Zelda has the fate of the world in the palm of her hand to play with and mold to her own liking, and somehow that involves restarting the world as if Ganon's takeover had never happened without actually canceling out the negative consequences of it. Gah! Dude, you can't have it both ways. It's like you're halfway between single and split here, acknowledging some of the effects of the split but insisting that it all works out into a single timeline anyway. Pick a side!"
If the goddesses will it to be that way, then why not? Read my words, not what you think they mean. I never said that she made it as if Ganon's reign never happened. I mean quite the opposite. It happened. The scars of it were still felt. That is why Zelda was sorrowful afterwards. Why would she be sad if everything were simply fixed? What she did bestow is the ability to relive those years that Ganon's reign stole from Hyrule.
Your problem is that you have a cut-clean view of time, a concept that only exists by human perception in the first place. Who are you to tell me that time can split but my way can't work? I am not acknowledging any split whatsoever.
Comment #32 by Mact
03/09/07 00:34
"But changing this would be a *huge* change. It would impact too much. Generally anything that changes is going to be a little thing - usually adding additional detail to something that was less defined before (which is particularly true when you insist on continuing with prequels like Miyamoto & co. keep doing :P)"
You may want to note that splitting the timeline of a series that fit quite well linearly beforehand is a "*huge*" change.
You may want to note that splitting the timeline of a series that fit quite well linearly beforehand is a "*huge*" change.
Comment #33 by Mact
03/09/07 00:45
Yeah, I'm triple posting, but I have another idea.
I did slightly mention it already, but, now that Aonuma actually explained his plan, the split timeline is not such an awful vision in my mind. My general problem with Twilight Princess is that it did not explain itself in tersm of the timeline on a stand-alone basis. Without Aonuma's exclusive interview, I would have never made such a connection. As long as things begin sticking together, I will be fine with this route.
One thing I did notice about the timesplit is the great dynamic that Twilight Princess and Wind Waker have set up. Whether it was intentional or not, it is a great contrast. Wind Waker's timeline finds Ganon being taken care of twice. Ocarina of Time actually saw his capture. He cursed Zelda and Link's descendants and followed through in Wind Waker. He was soon stopped. Now, this timeline is represented in a light manner, in great contrast to Twilight Princess, in which Ganon was never dealt with. Twilight Princess would follow a time in which Ganon was simply passed over to the Sages to deal with. They failed because they weren't the ones needed to kill him.
Interestingly enough though, to me, it seems that the light world of Wind Waker will be the world in which Ganon survives and returns. Yes, the flooding of Hyrule makes this seem unlikely, but his departure in Wind Waker seemed much less absolute than that in Twilight Princess. I think that the Twilight Princess timeline may see the rise of a new villian, and THAT excites me. Don't get me wrong, I love Ganon, but we need more. Vaati was already killed off, unfortunately, but there is always room for more. One thing a split would allow is for one timeline to exist in which Ganon could return over and over while another one never saw his return.
The final thing that makes me happy about a possible split is that it makes room for the Four Swords line to fit in eventually.
I did slightly mention it already, but, now that Aonuma actually explained his plan, the split timeline is not such an awful vision in my mind. My general problem with Twilight Princess is that it did not explain itself in tersm of the timeline on a stand-alone basis. Without Aonuma's exclusive interview, I would have never made such a connection. As long as things begin sticking together, I will be fine with this route.
One thing I did notice about the timesplit is the great dynamic that Twilight Princess and Wind Waker have set up. Whether it was intentional or not, it is a great contrast. Wind Waker's timeline finds Ganon being taken care of twice. Ocarina of Time actually saw his capture. He cursed Zelda and Link's descendants and followed through in Wind Waker. He was soon stopped. Now, this timeline is represented in a light manner, in great contrast to Twilight Princess, in which Ganon was never dealt with. Twilight Princess would follow a time in which Ganon was simply passed over to the Sages to deal with. They failed because they weren't the ones needed to kill him.
Interestingly enough though, to me, it seems that the light world of Wind Waker will be the world in which Ganon survives and returns. Yes, the flooding of Hyrule makes this seem unlikely, but his departure in Wind Waker seemed much less absolute than that in Twilight Princess. I think that the Twilight Princess timeline may see the rise of a new villian, and THAT excites me. Don't get me wrong, I love Ganon, but we need more. Vaati was already killed off, unfortunately, but there is always room for more. One thing a split would allow is for one timeline to exist in which Ganon could return over and over while another one never saw his return.
The final thing that makes me happy about a possible split is that it makes room for the Four Swords line to fit in eventually.
Comment #34 by Muljo_Stpho
03/09/07 02:20
<I>Check her hand. Now check her title. She is the Sage of Time and the one Chosen to wield the Triforce of Wisdom. Who is she to play god? Well, I guess you'd have to ask the goddesses who gave her the Wisdom and right to do what she did.</I>
Oh she has power, there's no doubts there. I just think you may be overestimating her abilities a bit. Sending one man/boy back to some key point in time is one thing, but to literally create a duplicate universe (as was once believed when it was still the double timeline) or to play with the fabric of reality in whatever way you seem to be describing... that's just too much.
<I>What she did bestow is the ability to relive those years that Ganon's reign stole from Hyrule.</I>
Huh, still not following you. Are you suggesting that... instead of sending Link back in time so that HE could live out the years he missed by leaping around in time the way he did... that she de-aged EVERYONE? If that's not what you're saying either, than I guess I really don't know what you're trying to say.
<I>My general problem with Twilight Princess is that it did not explain itself in tersm of the timeline on a stand-alone basis. Without Aonuma's exclusive interview, I would have never made such a connection.</I>
Well the evidence is there if you're looking for it, but you're right that they don't give enough to be put together by someone who doesn't know the first thing about the timeline or someone who is unwilling to see the timeline from this point of view. (It doesn't help matters any that they stated in an earlier interview that the game would come between OoT and TWW.) Many of the points confirmed in the new interview had already been touched upon in speculation. We just don't have any in-game proof of whatever outrageous act he did to get imprisoned on the child timeline. TP glosses over that part pretty quickly with the whole exposed and subdued line.
That's the real problem with the timeline. Whatever efforts they may be making to make the whole thing clearer, they're not going to spoon feed this stuff to us. It's going to be hidden or incomplete, and it's up to the fans to piece it together as best we can.
Oh she has power, there's no doubts there. I just think you may be overestimating her abilities a bit. Sending one man/boy back to some key point in time is one thing, but to literally create a duplicate universe (as was once believed when it was still the double timeline) or to play with the fabric of reality in whatever way you seem to be describing... that's just too much.
<I>What she did bestow is the ability to relive those years that Ganon's reign stole from Hyrule.</I>
Huh, still not following you. Are you suggesting that... instead of sending Link back in time so that HE could live out the years he missed by leaping around in time the way he did... that she de-aged EVERYONE? If that's not what you're saying either, than I guess I really don't know what you're trying to say.
<I>My general problem with Twilight Princess is that it did not explain itself in tersm of the timeline on a stand-alone basis. Without Aonuma's exclusive interview, I would have never made such a connection.</I>
Well the evidence is there if you're looking for it, but you're right that they don't give enough to be put together by someone who doesn't know the first thing about the timeline or someone who is unwilling to see the timeline from this point of view. (It doesn't help matters any that they stated in an earlier interview that the game would come between OoT and TWW.) Many of the points confirmed in the new interview had already been touched upon in speculation. We just don't have any in-game proof of whatever outrageous act he did to get imprisoned on the child timeline. TP glosses over that part pretty quickly with the whole exposed and subdued line.
That's the real problem with the timeline. Whatever efforts they may be making to make the whole thing clearer, they're not going to spoon feed this stuff to us. It's going to be hidden or incomplete, and it's up to the fans to piece it together as best we can.
Comment #35 by Mact
03/09/07 09:59
"Oh she has power, there's no doubts there. I just think you may be overestimating her abilities a bit. Sending one man/boy back to some key point in time is one thing, but to literally create a duplicate universe (as was once believed when it was still the double timeline) or to play with the fabric of reality in whatever way you seem to be describing... that's just too much."
Too much? You still seem to overlook the fact that she is backed by three goddesses who can do such things. If Nayru, Farore, and Din wanted her to be able to repair the world just this one time, she damn well can. It's their powers of creation fueling her. I also believe you are making my description out to be more than it is.
"Are you suggesting that... instead of sending Link back in time so that HE could live out the years he missed by leaping around in time the way he did... that she de-aged EVERYONE?"
I think that's as close as I can get it.
"Well the evidence is there if you're looking for it, but you're right that they don't give enough to be put together by someone who doesn't know the first thing about the timeline or someone who is unwilling to see the timeline from this point of view."
Haha. I know about the timeline. I am willing to see it another way and have begun to see it as such since the recent explanation. I'm not a person unwilling to see things differently. My explanation to you is simply how I have seen things so far. In that sense, a linear timeline is possible, but if Aonuma says it isn't, all the possibility I give is void. The author is the author.
Believe me, I was looking for where Twilight Princess fit in based on game content alone. I just didn't see it. I don't believe the game explains itself well enough.
The atrocious act could be a mix of things. Like I've said before, we don't know where in time the child timeline left off. If it was after he poisoned the Deku Tree, then you have your atrocious act right there. As I see it, the only thing Link was supposed to do by going back is to not open the Sacred Realm.
Too much? You still seem to overlook the fact that she is backed by three goddesses who can do such things. If Nayru, Farore, and Din wanted her to be able to repair the world just this one time, she damn well can. It's their powers of creation fueling her. I also believe you are making my description out to be more than it is.
"Are you suggesting that... instead of sending Link back in time so that HE could live out the years he missed by leaping around in time the way he did... that she de-aged EVERYONE?"
I think that's as close as I can get it.
"Well the evidence is there if you're looking for it, but you're right that they don't give enough to be put together by someone who doesn't know the first thing about the timeline or someone who is unwilling to see the timeline from this point of view."
Haha. I know about the timeline. I am willing to see it another way and have begun to see it as such since the recent explanation. I'm not a person unwilling to see things differently. My explanation to you is simply how I have seen things so far. In that sense, a linear timeline is possible, but if Aonuma says it isn't, all the possibility I give is void. The author is the author.
Believe me, I was looking for where Twilight Princess fit in based on game content alone. I just didn't see it. I don't believe the game explains itself well enough.
The atrocious act could be a mix of things. Like I've said before, we don't know where in time the child timeline left off. If it was after he poisoned the Deku Tree, then you have your atrocious act right there. As I see it, the only thing Link was supposed to do by going back is to not open the Sacred Realm.
Comment #36 by Muljo_Stpho
03/09/07 16:42
Yeah, the way the general assumption goes we have Link going back to just before he pulled the Master Sword for the first time. Sure it's no more valid than any other assumption we might make, but the perks of choosing that particular moment are that Link has already helped everyone as best he can. Ganon set all those curses to try and coerce them into giving up their sacred stones, and the beginning part of OoT has you setting things right. It's just that last step, obtaining the Master Sword, where it all went wrong.
At any rate, my guess is that Ganon's big crime was destroying the Temple of Time. Yes, he did horrible things against the Goron and Zora (and with not a hint of subtlety either). And yes, the Kokiri are pretty much screwed with the Deku Tree dead. But until you come along and save them they seemed content to deal with their problems alone, and I'm pretty sure they never told Hyrule's king about it, and the Kokiri never seem to communicate with the outside world anyway.
But having his objective barred from him at the last minute wouldn't have been enough to make Ganon just give up and go home. It's not unreasonable to assume that he may have decided that if he couldn't coerce his way into the Sacred Realm he'd just try to get in through brute force. Unless you think that Zelda's enhanced wisdom should've allowed her to forsee this calamity and that she would've made Link stay if she knew what kind of alternate future he'd end up living in? 'Cause obviously all those powers of hers have made her infallible, right? It's not possible that she simply wanted to do something nice for him and didn't really think it through, right?
<I>Too much? You still seem to overlook the fact that she is backed by three goddesses who can do such things. If Nayru, Farore, and Din wanted her to be able to repair the world just this one time, she damn well can. It's their powers of creation fueling her. I also believe you are making my description out to be more than it is.</I>
Wow, I must have missed the part where she obtained Ganon and Link's pieces of the Triforce. She has the power of a goddess's wisdom, and she has whatever powers she possesses as a sage. You do bring up a valid point about the whole Triforce though. In LttP, Link was able to use the power of the full Triforce to set the world right again and bring both his uncle and the king back to life. I don't see how this situation is anything like that though. Zelda does not have the full Triforce.
Honestly, the sage powers in general just don't seem all that extensive. Combining their powers together has allowed them to 1) build a bridge, and 2) to create a seal which, according to TWW, ends up failing and letting Ganondorf reign unopposed until the flood stops him. You're suggesting that a single sage cast out her powers and made everyone in Hyrule seven years younger. That would be a pretty impressive feat, but if the sages possess that much potential why was their combined might so pathetic? Considering how worthless they seem to be I think it's awfully generous just to assume Zelda has power enough to send Link back to that particular moment.
At any rate, my guess is that Ganon's big crime was destroying the Temple of Time. Yes, he did horrible things against the Goron and Zora (and with not a hint of subtlety either). And yes, the Kokiri are pretty much screwed with the Deku Tree dead. But until you come along and save them they seemed content to deal with their problems alone, and I'm pretty sure they never told Hyrule's king about it, and the Kokiri never seem to communicate with the outside world anyway.
But having his objective barred from him at the last minute wouldn't have been enough to make Ganon just give up and go home. It's not unreasonable to assume that he may have decided that if he couldn't coerce his way into the Sacred Realm he'd just try to get in through brute force. Unless you think that Zelda's enhanced wisdom should've allowed her to forsee this calamity and that she would've made Link stay if she knew what kind of alternate future he'd end up living in? 'Cause obviously all those powers of hers have made her infallible, right? It's not possible that she simply wanted to do something nice for him and didn't really think it through, right?
<I>Too much? You still seem to overlook the fact that she is backed by three goddesses who can do such things. If Nayru, Farore, and Din wanted her to be able to repair the world just this one time, she damn well can. It's their powers of creation fueling her. I also believe you are making my description out to be more than it is.</I>
Wow, I must have missed the part where she obtained Ganon and Link's pieces of the Triforce. She has the power of a goddess's wisdom, and she has whatever powers she possesses as a sage. You do bring up a valid point about the whole Triforce though. In LttP, Link was able to use the power of the full Triforce to set the world right again and bring both his uncle and the king back to life. I don't see how this situation is anything like that though. Zelda does not have the full Triforce.
Honestly, the sage powers in general just don't seem all that extensive. Combining their powers together has allowed them to 1) build a bridge, and 2) to create a seal which, according to TWW, ends up failing and letting Ganondorf reign unopposed until the flood stops him. You're suggesting that a single sage cast out her powers and made everyone in Hyrule seven years younger. That would be a pretty impressive feat, but if the sages possess that much potential why was their combined might so pathetic? Considering how worthless they seem to be I think it's awfully generous just to assume Zelda has power enough to send Link back to that particular moment.
Comment #37 by Mact
03/10/07 00:30
"Unless you think that Zelda's enhanced wisdom should've allowed her to forsee this calamity and that she would've made Link stay if she knew what kind of alternate future he'd end up living in? 'Cause obviously all those powers of hers have made her infallible, right? It's not possible that she simply wanted to do something nice for him and didn't really think it through, right?"
Your sarcasm isn't appreciated. I don't think I ever implied that Zelda is infallible. That'd be moronic. After all, it was her person quest for power that allowed Ganon to enter the Sacred Realm in the first place.
"Wow, I must have missed the part where she obtained Ganon and Link's pieces of the Triforce. "
Why is it that you believe that the Triforce is the only method of obtaining the power of the god's. I did not mean that she had the power by her Triforce piece. I used the piece as a sign that she was looked highly upon by the god's and, therefore, might be granted the power to cause such a change. Again, please read what I say and not what you want me to be saying. If the god's wanted to directly allow her to manipulate the fabric of the universe for that one situation, they damn well could.
Your sarcasm isn't appreciated. I don't think I ever implied that Zelda is infallible. That'd be moronic. After all, it was her person quest for power that allowed Ganon to enter the Sacred Realm in the first place.
"Wow, I must have missed the part where she obtained Ganon and Link's pieces of the Triforce. "
Why is it that you believe that the Triforce is the only method of obtaining the power of the god's. I did not mean that she had the power by her Triforce piece. I used the piece as a sign that she was looked highly upon by the god's and, therefore, might be granted the power to cause such a change. Again, please read what I say and not what you want me to be saying. If the god's wanted to directly allow her to manipulate the fabric of the universe for that one situation, they damn well could.
Comment #38 by Muljo_Stpho
03/10/07 12:29
"Again, please read what I say and not what you want me to be saying."
What you're saying sounds like gibberish. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from. I think we've reached a stalemate though. You're not making your meaning any clearer and you've shot down every best guess I could come up with. I'd love it if I could come away from this with an interesting new theory to think about, even if I disagree with it completely, but I'm at a loss to explain your cryptic comments and your repeated insistence that I'm misreading your posts somehow.
I can't remember what it was, but I actually had a really neat revelation on some part of the timeline or another when I had a discussion quite like this one with someone on gamefaqs, came to understand his point of view perfectly, and compromised the pros and cons of both sides of the debate into a single theory we could both agree on. I wish I could remember what that was...
What you're saying sounds like gibberish. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from. I think we've reached a stalemate though. You're not making your meaning any clearer and you've shot down every best guess I could come up with. I'd love it if I could come away from this with an interesting new theory to think about, even if I disagree with it completely, but I'm at a loss to explain your cryptic comments and your repeated insistence that I'm misreading your posts somehow.
I can't remember what it was, but I actually had a really neat revelation on some part of the timeline or another when I had a discussion quite like this one with someone on gamefaqs, came to understand his point of view perfectly, and compromised the pros and cons of both sides of the debate into a single theory we could both agree on. I wish I could remember what that was...
Comment #39 by Syrus
03/12/07 15:06
Comment #40 by Aglaia
03/15/07 08:07
"OoT > Wind Waker
OoT > Majora's Mask > Twilight Princess. "
I´d rather think
OoT > Majoras Mask > Wind Waker
After Link vanished into that parallel universe, there was noone to stop ganondorf from returning, and so Hyrule was flooded and sealed.
If Link just returned to his time in the end of OoT and Zelda was left in that new and peaceful Hyrule to rule, there´d be probably no problem to have a few hundred years of peace. And after that, TP could take place.
The question is how Ganondorf could obtain the Triforce in that state.
"There's one factor everyone seems to be forgetting or should I say one person. Fado. If Twilight Princess has no connection to Wind Waker's Storyline then why is Fado mentioned?"
It´s just a name. Where is the comparison between the Kokiri sage Fado and the goatherd? ^^
OoT > Majora's Mask > Twilight Princess. "
I´d rather think
OoT > Majoras Mask > Wind Waker
After Link vanished into that parallel universe, there was noone to stop ganondorf from returning, and so Hyrule was flooded and sealed.
If Link just returned to his time in the end of OoT and Zelda was left in that new and peaceful Hyrule to rule, there´d be probably no problem to have a few hundred years of peace. And after that, TP could take place.
The question is how Ganondorf could obtain the Triforce in that state.
"There's one factor everyone seems to be forgetting or should I say one person. Fado. If Twilight Princess has no connection to Wind Waker's Storyline then why is Fado mentioned?"
It´s just a name. Where is the comparison between the Kokiri sage Fado and the goatherd? ^^
Comment #41 by Muljo_Stpho
03/16/07 00:09
Comment #42 by Syrus
03/19/07 18:21
"Wasn't Fado that guy that gets in your way when you're trying to get to the Deku Tree and (later in the game) the Forest Temple? Saria was the Kokiri Sage."
You must be thinking of Mido there.
"It's just a name. Where is the comparison between the Kokiri Sage Fado and the goathred?"
I'm sorry the what? Goathred? And if you talk to the Mayor of Ordon Village in Twilight Princess he mentions how he's worried about Fado 'having an accident...' Fado dies in Wind Waker, albeit from Ganondorf. It's possible that Twilight Princess is a completely different Universe from the other LOZ's but if that's the case then bloody hell.
You must be thinking of Mido there.
"It's just a name. Where is the comparison between the Kokiri Sage Fado and the goathred?"
I'm sorry the what? Goathred? And if you talk to the Mayor of Ordon Village in Twilight Princess he mentions how he's worried about Fado 'having an accident...' Fado dies in Wind Waker, albeit from Ganondorf. It's possible that Twilight Princess is a completely different Universe from the other LOZ's but if that's the case then bloody hell.
Comment #43 by Aglaia
03/20/07 09:27
I meant him to be someone who´s herding goats. dict.leo.org says goatherd *shrug*
I didn´t say it´s the same universe. But I can´t imagine, how these two could be related (Not by blood, by meaning)
But right now i can´t remeber the Mayor saying that.Can you remember which time it was (after a certain dungeon or act)
I didn´t say it´s the same universe. But I can´t imagine, how these two could be related (Not by blood, by meaning)
But right now i can´t remeber the Mayor saying that.Can you remember which time it was (after a certain dungeon or act)
Comment #44 by Syrus
03/23/07 14:53
Comment #45 by mrfinke
03/25/07 01:22
I thought it was interesting how when Nintendo said TP takes place in between OoT and WW, everyone assumes it was in Hyrule B, bc they previously said WW was after the adult Link ending, but I don't think they ever said TP was specifically after the adult Link ending.
Well, if you think about it, TP is after OoT and before WW, just in a different timeline.
Well, if you think about it, TP is after OoT and before WW, just in a different timeline.
Comment #46 by FourPawLink
03/29/07 04:03
Based on Aonuma's statement's and my best efforts; this is what I've come up with.
I will not debate it, it is simply my opinion; the best I can come up with at the moment.
OOT - WW
Adult Link defeats Ganondorf, saving Hyrule, then disappears ( see OOT - TP explination ). Hundreds of years later Ganon returns to Hyrule, and without a hero ( or a bloodline which would reencarnate the hero ) Ganon is free to rule. The people of Hyrule pray for rescue, and the Goddesses choose to drown the kingdom and begin anew, asigning the title of hero to a new bloodline ( this explains why Wind Waker Link has no link to OOT Link ). This new Link defeats Ganon.
OOT - TP
Adult Link, after defeating Ganon, returns the Master Sword to the pedistal, and is sent back to his youth. Now a young boy, Link has returned to a time BEFORE he defeated Ganondorf, however, since he does not gather the keys to open the sacred realm, Ganon is forced to pursue his goals through other -- less effective means. In the mean-time, Link leaves Hyrule in search of Navi ( his fairy who left him after his adventure in OOT ), and heads to Termina ( MM ). A few years pass, and Ganondorf, in an effort to take control of Hyrule, is imprisoned and sentenced to death. As the deed is carried out, the Triforce of Power suddenly fuses with him ( " through some devine prank "* ) -- making Ganondorf all-but invincible. In a last ditch effort to save Hyrule, the sages which originally sentenced him to death now seal him away in the Twilight Realm. A hundred years pass before Zant ( under the influence of Ganondorf ) takes control of the Twilight Realm, and invades the world of Light. A new hero, Link ( possibly related by blood to the original child Link from OOT ) is tasked to defeat Zant and Ganondorf.
* Quote from Twilight Princess
I will not debate it, it is simply my opinion; the best I can come up with at the moment.
OOT - WW
Adult Link defeats Ganondorf, saving Hyrule, then disappears ( see OOT - TP explination ). Hundreds of years later Ganon returns to Hyrule, and without a hero ( or a bloodline which would reencarnate the hero ) Ganon is free to rule. The people of Hyrule pray for rescue, and the Goddesses choose to drown the kingdom and begin anew, asigning the title of hero to a new bloodline ( this explains why Wind Waker Link has no link to OOT Link ). This new Link defeats Ganon.
OOT - TP
Adult Link, after defeating Ganon, returns the Master Sword to the pedistal, and is sent back to his youth. Now a young boy, Link has returned to a time BEFORE he defeated Ganondorf, however, since he does not gather the keys to open the sacred realm, Ganon is forced to pursue his goals through other -- less effective means. In the mean-time, Link leaves Hyrule in search of Navi ( his fairy who left him after his adventure in OOT ), and heads to Termina ( MM ). A few years pass, and Ganondorf, in an effort to take control of Hyrule, is imprisoned and sentenced to death. As the deed is carried out, the Triforce of Power suddenly fuses with him ( " through some devine prank "* ) -- making Ganondorf all-but invincible. In a last ditch effort to save Hyrule, the sages which originally sentenced him to death now seal him away in the Twilight Realm. A hundred years pass before Zant ( under the influence of Ganondorf ) takes control of the Twilight Realm, and invades the world of Light. A new hero, Link ( possibly related by blood to the original child Link from OOT ) is tasked to defeat Zant and Ganondorf.
* Quote from Twilight Princess
Comment #47 by Aglaia
04/04/07 10:16
Comment #48 by mrfinke
06/28/07 02:59
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